Intro: Welcome to The Death Readiness Podcast. I'm Jill Mastroianni, an attorney with more than a decade of practical experience in trusts and estates, here to demystify the complexities of planning for the inevitable. This podcast is your guide to navigating estate planning and end of life preparation with clarity, compassion, and empowerment. Let’s spark the conversation, shift perspectives, and explore how to embrace death readiness together, courageously and thoughtfully.

Jill Mastroianni: (00:33)

Welcome back to The Death Readiness Podcast. I'm your host, Jill Mastroianni.

What’s actually in an urn? Can you be composted when you die? And why do people keep ending up with forgotten ashes in the back of their closets? If you’ve ever had a quiet, weird moment of wondering—what actually happens when someone dies?—but didn’t know where to turn, this episode is your shortcut to answers.

My guest today is Jamie Sarche, Director of Pre-arranged Funeral Planning at Feldman Mortuary in Denver, Colorado, and one of the most refreshingly honest and relatable voices in the death industry. Jamie’s not afraid to talk about the uncomfortable stuff—whether it’s the environmental cost of fire cremation, why we embalm people with carcinogenic fluid, or the surprising logistics of composting your body after death.

In this conversation, Jamie walks me through my own funeral planning. We unpack things like green burial, water cremation, whether we’re running out of space in cemeteries, and why embalming might not be doing us—or the earth—any favors.

So, if you’ve been avoiding the topic because you didn’t know what to ask or where to start… good news. I asked. Jamie answered. And it’s way less grim—and way more empowering—than you might think. Let’s get into it.

(02:10) Hi, Jamie. Thanks so much for joining me today.

Jamie Sarche: (02:15)

I'm so happy to be with you. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Jill: (02:18)

I was introduced to you through someone in sort of the ‘death-related’ community, and I was so excited to talk to you because I know—I would say, “little to none” about pre-need funeral planning, but it's none. It's not even ‘little to none’. It's none (chuckles). 

Jamie: (02:39)

You’re not alone. 

Jill: (02:39)

And I was thinking that you could provide us with some context, just to start out, as to your background—and I know it wasn't necessarily in this field. And then we can kind of jump into the more funeral planning-specific conversation after that.

Jamie: (03:02)

Absolutely. Thanks for asking. So, I really have no business doing this job. 

I have a communication degree, and my goal was to work in television. I got married young and followed my husband—who was a reporter, and we were in Little Rock, Arkansas and then Cheyenne, Wyoming, and I didn't really have a career quite honestly, [mm-hmm] and we had kids young and so I was home with them. And when I was about 40, I learned that Jim Cohen, who's the owner of Feldman Mortuary in Denver, Colorado's oldest family-owned funeral home, was looking for someone to do pre-arranged planning.

Jill: (03:42)

How did you learn about that? What circle were you in to learn about that opportunity? (chuckles)

Jamie: (03:47)

That's a great question. Thank you. (Jill chuckles). Nobody's ever asked me that question. I've told this story for 16 years. 

Feldman's is the only Jewish funeral home in Denver. I've known Jim forever. In fact, we were in the same religious school class. [Wow.] And so it is kind of a really funny story, actually. 

(04:07) A very close friend of mine, Karen, was thinking about becoming a death doula. And she didn't know a lot about it. She had been a birth doula, and she was interested in learning. She's good friends with Jim's brother, Mark. And she thought, well, I'll go talk to Jim and see what he knows about it. Well, he didn't know anything about it, but he said to her, I'm looking for someone to do prearranged funeral planning. And just coincidentally, I was having dinner with her that night. And she said, “I went and met with Jim and here's what he shared. And I don't want to do that.” And I said, “I want to do that.” And it was literally like lightning struck. So, I went to him…

Jill: (04:50)

Well, let me just back up for a second. When you said, you want to do that—why did you want to do that? Or did you not even know, it just sort of came out—

Jamie: (05:01)

I didn't know what it was. [Okay] I knew nothing. Literally she said the words to me, “prearranged funeral planning”. [Oh okay.] I literally knew nothing.

Jill: (05:09)

So, you were like me today, sitting here. We’re at the same level, when you were having that dinner conversation. [That’s right.] Okay, great.

Jamie: (05:17)

That's right. I knew nothing. And I just knew—when I say, “lightning”, I am telling you, this was a divine intervention. I literally had no business going to him to say, “I am the right person for this job”, but I am the right person for this job. And that is what I did. I went to him, and I said, “I want to do this. I am the right person for this job.” He never had anyone in this role before.

I got no training at all, which quite honestly has been the best thing that ever happened to me because people who do this typically do it in a very specific way. And I didn't know that. [Right.] And so, I didn't do it that way. And I figured out exactly what works for me. 

But I'll tell you that I think the reason that I knew I could be the right person for this job is that I like talking about things we're not supposed to talk about. 

(06:18) I was a sex educator in college. I was in college in the mid-80s, and the AIDS epidemic was really ramping up and I was teaching people about AIDS at that time. I have always been somebody who says, “you know, why should we not be able to talk about this? Why should that be taboo?” And I like doing that. 

And I think that's how I felt about death. You know, because our society says, “Don’t talk about it, don't think about it, what's wrong with you? We're just going to be busy living.” [Right.] And I'm a big believer that all those things that we refuse to talk about hold too much power over us. And we need to talk about them. 

And the other thing that was really important in my life that I believe led me to this was that my very close friend, Michelle, who I had been friends with since we were in ninth grade, [mm-hmm] and whose husband I had been friends with since we were four, got a brain tumor—a glioblastoma—when we were 26. [Okay.] If you're not familiar with glioblastoma—it's terminal. It's what John McCain had; Ted Kennedy had it. I've known way too many people who've had it.

Jill: (07:30) 

I heard of that for the first time this year with a friend whose friend was diagnosed with a glioblastoma. And she said that he was the second person she had heard of that year in her friend group being diagnosed. So, only recently did I hear of that.

Jamie: (07:50)

And I'm sorry to say, you're probably going to start hearing about it more. And I think it almost is like when you know about it—it's like when you buy a Subaru, everybody drives a Subaru—[Right.] 

So, she got diagnosed with that. And everybody around her did what people do—and they said to her, “you're young, you're strong, you're going to beat this.” And somehow, I didn't say that. I didn't feel that. I doubt most people felt that because it's a terminal illness. But I went to her, and I said, “I can go with you into the hard stuff. I'm not going to tell you it's going to be okay. And I'm not going to ask you to tell me it's gonna be okay, because both of us know it's not gonna be okay.” [Right.] 

(08:45) And I think that aside from her minister, I might have been the only one who she could tell those things to. Because, you know, what kind of happens in these situations is everybody's worried about making the people feel worse. 

So, you don't want to tell the ill person, “Ugh, God, this is really awful” because that'll make them feel worse. And the ill person doesn't want to say, “I'm really scared, and this is really going to be awful” because you'll make everybody else feel worse.

And you know, so we've kind of created this deal that we're not going to talk about what's weighing on everybody. And I don't think that's a good idea.

Jill: (09:24)

So, I had heard you tell that story. And what's interesting—I didn't think about it at the time. But now that I'm sitting where I am—do you see the painting behind me? [Yeah.] It's a dog playing in a field. And I gave my husband for his 40th birthday a dog. It's that dog (chuckles), back there in that painting. And the painting was done by a young man who was the fiancé of my very good friend who passed away in her 20s from mouth cancer. 

And it was kind of like your situation. It was a shock. We ran at a Division 1 college together. She was a very healthy person. Her parents were both physicians. She didn't make it. She was optimistic, but she didn't make it. And after she died, I stayed in touch with her fiancé who ended up doing this painting, which is right behind me.

And I remember that my dad and Kristen—was her name—Kristen and I…

Jamie: (10:27)

Thank you for telling me, I wanted to ask…

Jill: (10:29)

We were at my parents' house, and they lived on a lake in the Adirondacks, and Kristen had had surgery and so she was limited in what she could eat because the surgery was in her mouth. And she told my dad, “I don't know why this happened. I love food. This shouldn't have happened to me.” And my dad said, “Kristen, somebody made a mistake. I don't know why this happened either.” 

And it was like—it was just interesting to talk about it in a way that—gosh, there's this horrible thing—somebody somewhere has made a terrible mistake. But she lived it and died with it, unfortunately.

When I ran the Boston Marathon—and you're not supposed to do this, but she did it—she jumped in the race with me, and she was wearing a shirt that said, “Cheer for Jill”. She was waiting for me at the half marathon mark. She somehow missed me. So, then she got her dad to drive her to the finish line from which she ran the course backward until she found me three miles from the finish line. And she finished with me and there are these pictures of us finishing and she's got that shirt on. 

And I found it recently going through some photos and I took a picture, and I sent it to her dad. He said, “Oh, she just looks so healthy then. That was such a good picture of her.” But I digress. That's...

Jamie: (11:57)

No, but how long ago did Kristen die?

Jill: (12:00)

She died, I believe, in 2010. I was in law school. [Wow.] Yeah. 

Jamie: (12:07)

Wow, that's so hard. Thank you for sharing that with me.

Jill: (12:11)

Well, you know, it's important, I think, to talk about people still. 

When my dad was visiting recently, I asked him if he remembered this painting behind me. And he said he did. And he started telling my daughter, who never met Kristin, about how amazing she was. And, you know, I don't ever want to forget her, and it was really nice that he still has these really good memories.

Jamie: (12:39)

That's so beautiful. And what you're leading me to think about is that we do that sometimes where we never say the person's name again. You know, like we're worried about making their people feel worse. And so we don't ask, or we don't send the picture, or whatever. 

And really, when people are grieving and they're going to be grieving forever, that idea of saying, that person still is with me, she's so important to me. 

I mean, I feel so grateful because I feel like Michelle just sits on my left shoulder all the time, [mm-hmm] and that she brought me into this. And I just feel so grateful that she's still with me. She's been gone for 28 years.

Jill: (13:13)

Wow, yeah, it's a long time. Some things seem like yesterday still. [Yeah.] 

So, where were we, Jamie, [chuckles] before I jumped in?

Jamie: (13:31)

No, I appreciate it. And you know, like this is what I want. I want a conversation [mm-hmmm]. 

So, I think what I was sharing is that I was able to say to Michelle, like, “tell me really how things are.” And I was able to say to her, “here's how things really are for me as well.” It really was her story too, but we just got to be together in this, in the reality of the emotion. 

And we could grieve her life together. And talk about what was it going to be like to know she wasn't going to be able to raise her son, who was 10-months at the time of her diagnosis. [Wow.] 

(14:07) He got married last year, and I was able to be at his wedding. And it was so beautiful because he showed me—he opened his jacket, and he had these two pins that his now wife had made for him—and one was a pin of his mom, Michelle, holding him. And another was a pin of his grandmother, Sandra, who had died pretty recently—also of a glioblastoma, even though it's not supposed to be hereditary. 

So, I feel so grateful, although I'll tell you, I didn't get to have the relationship with him growing up—what I wished we would have had—because things shifted for Mark when he got remarried and they moved away. But I feel really grateful to have the connection with him still and to always feel the connection with Michelle.

Jill: (14:32)

Mm-hmm. That is important.

Jamie: (14:55)

So, I think that that's what kind of led me to be able to say, “I can talk about this. I know I can do this.” And so, it took Jim a while to figure out, “yeah, let's do this. Here's how we're gonna do it.” 

And then it was funny because for the first several years that I did this work, I thought, oh my God, how am I going to talk to people about prearranged funeral planning? If I do, they will think, I think, they're gonna die. And it really took me, I'm not kidding, three years until I realized, well—I do think they're going to die—

Jill: (15:34)

Yeah, I do too.

Jamie: (15:35)

I'm correct, they're going to die. Everybody's gonna die. It's not a failure. It's not, you know—sometimes it's a tragedy—but it's how our life is supposed to end. We are not supposed to live forever. And I am a big believer that contemplating our mortality and acknowledging our mortality helps us to live much more meaningfully. It helps us to live with compassion, with empathy for others. It's really valuable that we're mortal.

Jill: (16:09)

I think that makes a lot of sense—that you do tend to value your own life and other people's lives more when you're cognizant that they won't exist forever. And whatever you think happens after you die—we all know that existence as we are today is not something that we'll always have. 

When you were talking about your experience in college and the AIDS education, I started to remember that my mom was a hospice volunteer when we were growing up. And she would take us to visit the people in hospice that she served, and they would die. And there were also little kids my age—five—who had a parent who died. 

(16:57) And I remember my mom would encourage them to write notes to their parents, and I'd write a note too, you know (chuckles), why not? And then we'd go out to our barbecue, and she would burn the paper. And the message was supposed to get to the parent, you know, in this other environment through the burning. And I remember thinking, I don't see the letters. I don't—I took it very literally, like, I don't see the letters going up—but it was helpful, I think. Just at least to continue to acknowledge this person, especially a parent of little kids who was no longer there. 

So, I didn’t necessarily ever intend to enter into a death-related profession, but maybe if nothing else, my mom sort of prepared me for the fact that this is something that we can talk about.

Jamie: (17:49)

She absolutely did. She taught you that it's safe. And what a gift. We should all be giving our children that kind of gift that it's safe to talk about death, and that death is not a failure, and that it's okay to grieve. What a beautiful gift that she gave you by doing that, and to those kids. 

And the other thing that I'm noticing in how you talk about this—Wow, I so appreciate that you say, “and they died.” Every time you've said this, you've said, “and they died.” And I thank you. 

Most people are afraid to say those words. And I just think it's so important that we use the correct language. And maybe they pass away into another, you know, space, or they transition, or all of those things. But just like you said a few minutes ago, the way we know them—their life has ended. They have died.

Jill: (18:49)

Right. So, when you started to think, well, I don't know how I'm going to talk to people because they're going to think that I think they're going to die. And then you realized, well, I do think they're going to die—and maybe not imminently, but I actually know they're going to die. So, once you're there—you still have to get the person across from you over the bridge of realizing they are also going to die—how have you done that? How have you sort of brokered that conversation?

Jamie: (19:22)

So, I've really become an educator. [Okay.] As I said, that most people in my role do things in a very specific way. And I want to share with you what they do and then I'm going to share with you what I do. 

So, most of them do like ‘lunch and learns’ or they invite you to a nice restaurant, and you might not be old enough that you're getting these mailings yet—

Jill: (19:44)

I'm not getting them yet.

Jamie: (19:46)

Yeah, you will soon enough. At about 50, we start getting these mailings from financial advisors and funeral homes and they'll be like, Come to this steakhouse. We're going to buy you dinner and we're going to teach you about pre-arranged funeral planning. And then what they do is they have a very specific PowerPoint that they use, and they have somebody in the room to say, “okay, we're going to make appointments so don't leave before you make an appointment with Jamie,” you know.

Jill: (20:19)

Do they give you a folder, too?

Jamie: (20:21)

Yeah, there's a lot of things. 

Jill: (20:23)

That goes well with the PowerPoint.

Jamie: (20:25)

That's right. And again, I didn't know that. So, I didn't do that. So, what I did is I thought, well, how am I going to get in front of people who are the right age, the right demographic? You know, how am I going to do that? 

So, I went to an organization called Jewish Family Service. And Feldman's—the funeral home I work with, while we take care of everybody, we've been specializing in the Jewish community for almost 90 years—So I go to Jewish Family Service. At that time, they had this section that was all about grief support. It was called Raphael's Spiritual Healing. And I met with their executive director, Cynthia Heller, and I said, “you know, I want to figure out how to get in touch with the right people.”

Jill: (21:11)

Who are the right people? Who do you think of as the right people?

Jamie: (21:14)

So, at that time, I was thinking people who are open to this conversation, people who are sort of the right age. I'll tell you; I would like this to shift, but right now, the average age of people I do a prearrangement for is about 73. It's been coming down over the years. 

I really believe that the right time to do this is like when you've finished with your most expensive things. Like if you're in your 50s and your kids have gone off to college and you finish that, then to me that's the right time to do this. 

And I actually did it when I was 42. So, there can be lots of ‘right people’, but I thought the people who are going to be most open to the conversation are going to be older than that.

Jill: (22:01)

And if you did one when you were 42, have you redone it?

Jamie: (22:06)

No, no, it's a one-time deal. So, it's different than estate planning. 

Jill: (22:11)

One and done.

Jamie: (22:12)

Yeah, typically it's one and done. [Okay.] But we'll get back to that. [Okay, great]. 

I thought we came up with this great idea of doing a series. At that time, we did six weeks in a row of different speakers. We had it hosted at a retirement place. And we had six different speakers.

And that's what I've done for the last 16 years. It's called Before the Mourning, M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G. And I always speak—but I really don't speak specifically about prearranged funeral planning. I speak about all the things that I call “death adjacent”. And then I bring in other people who are speaking about things that are death adjacent.

(23:01) For many years, I would have like, an estate planning attorney. I might have a financial advisor, but what I've discovered in these many years is that people say they want the really pragmatic stuff, but they don't show up for the pragmatic stuff. They show up for the things that are like, more emotional, more “woo-woo”. That's what they typically will show up for. So that's what I give them. 

And what I'm trying to do in that series, is help them to see that I'm safe. And help them to see that this is a conversation that is worth having. And then they see me as this trusted advisor. And then they think, yeah, I think it's time to talk about this. And it's really been a successful way to do this. And I've been planting these seeds that planning ahead is a good idea. 

And it's interesting because for many years I've said to people, you know, “what makes this the right time to do this?" And they would say, “well, I'm old, or my sister just died—things like that.” But these days what I'm often hearing is, “well, we were talking about it at book club” or “I was at lunch with a friend and she shared.” So really the overarching umbrella of what I do in my work is to try to let people be less afraid of death. And I can see that that's really working, and it really feels so amazing to me. 

And the more that the community can start talking about this, the more likely they are to put their estate plan in place—which we should be doing, and I think like 70 or 80% of people die without an estate plan. They should have their funeral plans done, and I imagine it's more than 80% die without a funeral plan.

Jill: (24:55)

I would imagine so, yeah. 

Jamie: (24:57)

Yeah. So, these are things that we should do. We should clean up our own mess and not leave our people having to figure everything out when they're least capable of doing it.

Jill: (25:10)

Yes, I 100% agree. But I also think that these professions where we provide services in the death industry—I think that they seem like they're almost, you know, behind this really heavy door that we really have to be so ready to open it. Because when we open it, oh we are in and it's overwhelming. 

But what I try to provide through this podcast is a way for people to dip their toe, because it would be really scary for me to go to a funeral home and say, I would like to (chuckles) pre-plan my funeral. I am 100% not taking that step without talking to someone like you—where I feel safe. I don't want to open that heavy door because I don't know what's behind it and I don't know if I'm ready for it. 

But if I can dip my toe and get more comfortable and maybe, you know, I feel so comfortable with having this conversation with you that I feel more prepared to maybe, kind of, wade in a little bit.

Jamie: (26:23)

Yeah. That's such a great point. And that's really what I have been trying to do with the Before the Mourning series. And to just say, “it's safe, you can learn some things and then you decide when it's time for you to do this.” 

And some people, quite honestly, will never do it. Some people cannot do it. I mean, my father is an estate planning attorney [oh wow], and this is what I do [mm-hmm], and he will never, never, never do his funeral plan. Because he thinks if he makes a plan, he will die. And he's right. 

Jill: (26:58)

Yeah, he is right, he will.

Jamie: (26:59)

He will die. And the question becomes, will he die with a plan, or without a plan?

Jill: (27:05)

Right, because we know the timing of him dying is not going to be affected by him pre-planning his funeral.

Jamie: (27:11)

That is correct. And I will tell you, I think people do think if they do it, they'll bring death to them. And I have been doing this for 16 years. I have planned [chuckles] for thousands of people. 

And it's funny because we just started talking about this. I have this huge double filing cabinet. Like, you know, it can hold thousands of files. And now I need a new filing cabinet because it's so full because people have made all their plans and they're still fine.

Jill: (27:42)

Good for them.

Jamie: (27:43)

Yes. And it'll be good for their loved ones when it actually happens.

Jill: (27:47)

Yes, definitely. So, one of the things that I think I might have seen you talk about was a situation in which there was a parent and an adult child, and the adult child really wanted to have a conversation with the parent about pre-need planning, and that parent also wanted to have the conversation with the child, but neither had the conversation because they worried it would upset the other. [Yeah.]

So, do you have any suggestions for having these conversations in a way that's maybe not as terribly scary as we think it’s going to be?

Jamie: (28:21)

I think it's typically not as scary. It's the anticipation that is scary. And it's interesting because I talk to so many people when they're doing their own plans and they'll say, “well, I need to talk to my kids about this, that, and the other thing. I need to ask them if they want this, that, or the other thing.” And I have said to them—and I think this is the absolute truth, although it's probably different for your kids, it's certainly different for my kids, but for most kids—and this is 70-year-old kids or 60-year-old kids—they don't want to think about their parent dying. 

And so often when the parent says, “hey, I want to talk about this.” The kid puts up their hand and is like, “nope, we're not going there.” Which is a big mistake. But that's what they're taught. We're not supposed to talk about this. But they just want to know that the plans have been done.

(29:16) So that's what they really want is for their parent to go, “okay, I made these plans. Here's the card. Here's who to call.” But I would like to change that. That's what we need to change because it shouldn't be that scary. 

I have always talked to my children about death. I imagine you have always talked to your children about death. Your mother talked to you about death. [Right.] That's what I'm trying to really encourage is help people practice this.

Invite kids to come to the funeral. Invite kids to come to the cemetery. When their goldfish dies, have a ritual for that goldfish. You know, so many of us, if the goldfish dies, we rush out and get a new goldfish, so the kid doesn't know that the goldfish died, because we don't want them to feel bad. And I'm just a big believer, like, let them practice grieving. Grieving is not a negative emotion. It's a painful emotion sometimes, but it's not negative. And we need to learn how to do it in a healthful and healing way.

Jill: (30:25)

Yeah, my daughter actually has been involved in this podcast. She's 14-years-old. And one of the episodes that we did not too long ago was sort of, How to Create Your Own Family Podcast. 

And so, we did an episode of The Mastroianni Family Podcast, and she interviewed my dad with me, and she learned so much about him that later she was doing a project for school. And she asked me if I had any photos of my dad from when he served in Vietnam.

(30:55) And I asked her what she was doing. And she said that she had a school project, and she had to present on a known hero and an unknown hero. So, she chose Aretha Franklin as her known hero. And my dad was her unknown hero. And she didn't know that aspect of his life until we sat down and interviewed him. 

Yeah, I think it is important for her to not just make connections with family members of all generations, but to understand that these connections—the ability to connect in this way—is not something we'll have for our entire lives. So, we need to really value it. 

So, one of the things that I talked with you about doing is pre-need planning for my own funeral. And I don't know, like I said, I've never even dipped my toe—so I don't know what sort of questions you would ask in this situation—but I think it would be helpful for people to learn what decisions they might be asked to make so that they can feel a little bit more prepared.

Jamie: (32:01)

Absolutely. And I'm thrilled to do this with you. This is so fun for me. 

Okay. So, what we want to start with is really the most foundational question: 

What are your thoughts about what you want to have done with your body at the time of your death? 

And you live in Michigan, right?

Jill: (32:21)

I do.

Jamie: (32:22)

So, in Michigan, there might not be all the options that there are available in Colorado. Colorado has many, many, many options, which I'm happy to talk about if you want.

Jill: (32:32)

Yeah, let's assume that I live in Denver, Colorado.

Jamie: (32:35)

Perfect. Okay, wonderful. So, tell me a little bit about what you're thinking. Are you thinking you want to be buried? Are you thinking that you want an option that's not burial? What are you thinking about?

Jill: (32:47)

I, well, I try to be environmentally conscious, and I had always thought, until listening to you speak somewhere, that cremation was the most environmentally friendly way to do it. And so, I thought, you know, 100% cremation, that's what I want to do. [Yeah.] But I think I was incorrect in making that assumption. 

So, yes, being environmentally friendly is really the most important thing. I don't feel any kind of attachment to my physical self and would expect to—you know, I'm a designated organ donor, so, I don't know how that also would impact things.

Jamie: (33:26)

Good, let's talk about that, too. So yes, you're exactly right. Most people have no idea what these things mean. So let me talk just about what all the options could be. [Okay.]

So, fire cremation. Lots of people think, wow, that's a great choice because it doesn't use up space. [Right.] That I think is what leads most people to think it's environmentally friendly. 

First of all, I want you to understand that we are not running out of space in this country. In this country, there is enough space for burial for 10,000 years.

Jill: (34:02)

Okay, that I 100% do not understand. Because one of these questions I've had in my mind is, how do people who own a cemetery, how do they stay profitable? Because they are going to run out of space. But you're saying they're not. Why don't they?

Jamie: (34:18)

I mean they will at some point run out of space.

Jill: (34:22)

I guess I think in my head this is imminent.

Jamie: (34:25)

No, it's not anywhere near imminent. In one of the cemeteries in just one section of the cemetery in Denver, the one I'm going to get buried in, there is currently enough space for burial for 30 years of what's developed. And there's a lot more space that's still yet to be developed. 

So that's what people really don't understand. It might not be in that specific cemetery that's available, but there is a lot of land in this country. So new cemeteries could be created.

Jill: (35:00)

Okay. And then I suppose the other question, I don't know if you're getting to this—but have you heard of Larkspur in Tennessee, which is a place for green burials? 

Jamie: (35:11)

I haven’t but go ahead. 

Jill: (35:12)

In Tennessee. But I assume that there are places like this elsewhere, as well. And that was something that I learned about at a conference that I went to—this type of green burial—and honestly, it was a little bit jarring to me because, it was a video that I saw, and it's just like the body is right there…

Jamie: (35:33)

Let's talk about all those. So, I want you to understand we're not running out of space. [Okay.] So, if you wanted to be buried, [I don't] …it is a good—I hear that. [Okay.] (Jill chuckles) But for anybody who might consider burial [okay, good], it's actually the most natural way to do it—[interesting]—if you do it in a green way [okay].

In a green way means no embalming [Okay]. Embalming means removing the blood and replacing it with embalming fluid, which is essentially formaldehyde.

Jill: (36:04)

And why is that bad, environmentally?

Jamie: (36:08)

It's a carcinogen. [Okay.] It's very bad environmentally and it actually gives morticians cancer. It leeches into the groundwater. It's not good. A lot of funeral homes will just tell you it's required, or they won't say anything at all. And so that's just what happens to your person, because it's become a traditional way to do it. But it's only a tradition since the civil war.

Jill: (36:34)

I did know that, actually. For anyone who doesn't know, why has it been a tradition since the Civil War?

Jamie: (36:41)

Well, so a lot of soldiers needed to be embalmed to get back to their families. And then Abe Lincoln was embalmed, and he went across, you know, he was in a train [he did a tour] going across and people saw it. Yeah, it just became fashionable. [A death tour.] Yeah, a death tour. So, it just became fashionable and it's just not necessary.

Jill: (36:57)

Are people doing embalming for other than open caskets, or is it only something that is done for an open casket?

Jamie: (37:12)

Well, that's the problem. It's done with no thought. So, it's just the norm at most funeral homes. And a lot of funeral directors believe it's legally required. And certainly, in Colorado, it's not legally required. It is my understanding that there might be one state in the nation in which it is legally required, but I'm not even sure that's true. So, it's certainly not legally required here.

Jill: (37:41)

In Denver, Colorado, okay.

Jamie: (37:43)

And it's not legally required to cross state lines. It's not legally required to go into another country. You might have to go in a hermetically sealed box, but that's more about airline rules. So embalming, the only reason to have it is because you want it.

Jill: (37:55)

Why would somebody want it—just to preserve the physical?

Jamie: (38:06)

To preserve, yeah, well—I don't think it makes people look very normal, quite honestly. But it might just be what they're used to. It might be what their culture asks of them. It might be that they want to have an open casket and have good color in their skin and be plumped up, which embalming fluid can do. 

So, there might be reasons to do it, but it shouldn't just be the norm because it doesn't need to be done. And it's not good for the environment.

Jill: (38:37)

Okay. And is this a question that you will give an answer to in your pre-need planning—whether or not you wish to be embalmed?

Jamie: (38:48)

I typically assume people don't want to be embalmed. So, I take the opposite view than most people do. 

Like, I had some people recently who shared with me that they wanted to get a bronze casket, and they didn't ultimately get a bronze casket because a bronze casket is about $60,000. But I asked them, what is going into that decision? Why do you want a bronze casket? They said they really wanted to be protected. That was really important to them. And so, I said, do you also want to be embalmed? And they actually didn't want to be embalmed, but they wanted a really strong casket. So, they got a steel casket, ultimately.

Jill: (39:31)

How much was the steel casket?

Jamie: (39:33)

It was much more reasonable. But like a bronze casket might be what Aretha Franklin had.

Jill: (39:34)

Maybe…

Jamie: (39:40)

Yeah, she had something pretty fancy. So that's how I approach it, is to say, “tell me why you're making these decisions.” Like if you came to me and said, “I want to be cremated,” I would say, “okay, by fire?” And then I would say, “why do you want that?”

Jill: (39:55)

When you just said, “okay, by fire,” that suggests to me there's another way to cremate...

Jamie: (40:01)

That's right. So let me tell you exactly why fire cremation is not good for the environment. And then I'm going to tell you the other options. So, fire cremation uses a lot of gas, like a cross-country road trip of gas to make it happen.

Jill: (40:08)

I think that I might have texted with you or emailed with you about that podcast, Noble? It's this town in Georgia where there was a crematorium, and they were not cremating. I don't know if you had heard of that, but...

Jamie: (40:30)

Well, we've had that in Colorado as well.

Jill: (40:32)

They were getting gas deliveries—apparently not enough gas, though (chuckles). So, it became quite a problem. It was a very educational podcast, and I think very well done in terms of portraying even the individual who ended up serving time for not doing that as an overwhelmed human at the end of the day. 

But yes, I didn't even really think about sort of the amount of gas prior to listening to that podcast that would be required to run a crematorium.

Jamie: (41:03)

Yeah, and most people don't think about any of this. So why would, you know, of course you think about it more than a typical person and most people have never thought about it at all. 

So, all of the gas is used and then it burns away the tissue—the soft stuff. All of the emissions are going up into the atmosphere. It's actually a pretty significant contributor to climate change [oh wow] because so many people are doing it. [Okay.] The mercury in our teeth is going to, you know, get vaporized and go up into the atmosphere. It's not good. 

And then what's left after all the burning is the bone. And the funeral business calls the ground bone, the bone that gets put through a cremulator, ash. But there's no such thing as ash. It really is ground bone.

Jill: (41:52)

So, is that what goes in an urn? 

Jamie: (41:54)

Yeah. 

Jill: (41:55)

Okay.

Jamie: (41:56)

And so many people would say, “well, I want to be cremated and then I want to be scattered in this beautiful place.” And the funny thing about that is it's a pollutant. And so, you're asking your loved ones to take you to a place that is really meaningful to you and it's beautiful. And then you're polluting that place.

Jill: (42:15)

Like a beautiful park or a lake that you like to go on.

Jamie: (42:19)

Yes, or like for me, I went— my husband and I were on a hike in Waimea Canyon on Kauai. And we looked over and there's this pile of cremated remains (Jill chuckles). And I was envisioning what it must have been like for the person who told their loved ones that's what they want. And I'm sure they thought I'm just going to be part of Waimea Canyon, and Waimea Canyon is so beautiful—I can't imagine they thought (Jill chuckles), well, I'm going to just be a pile on the side of the hiking trail.

And then I thought about the people who did the scattering, and it must have felt so uncomfortable to them that they had to just dump it in a pile.

Jill: (42:58)

…and just leave, just get it over with. 

I actually, when I was at my dad's house recently, I usually sort of help him clean out stuff, and my daughter was helping me. And I said, “April, figure out what this box is.” And I was still going. And she said, “it's Hans. It's Hans!” (Jill and Jamie laugh) And this was my dad's dog who had died. And he was in that box.

And so I took him out of the closet, you know he was in the closet, and I put him on the bookshelf because I thought, well, if my dad kept his cremains, we might as well let him be with the family (chuckles). We don't need to put him in the closet. 

But this was my dad's dog that he was so close to, but he hadn't even remembered putting him in the closet. He probably didn't even really remember making any of those decisions because he was very sad. You know, when he was at the vet and he probably thought, I'll just put it away here and I'll deal with it later. 

Well, April dealt with it later and now Hans is…

Jamie: (43:58)

But you’ve taught her it's safe to deal with it, so good for you. And that happens a lot with people's cremains too because people don't know what to do with them. And so, they put them in the closet, they put them in their car trunk, they sometimes get at the storage facility… We've had people call us to say, “well I just purchased this abandoned storage facility and found this urn.” One of my co-workers once found an urn at Goodwill. 

Jill: (44:23)

Oh boy.

Jamie: (44:25)

Yeah. Don't do that to your people. If you want to be cremated, tell them what to do with it.

Jill: (44:29)

What are appropriate things to do with it? If you shouldn't spread it, what would you do? Is there an option for, I mean—I know when my dogs have died, I actually have not taken their ashes. So, I guess there's an option not to take them.

Jamie: (44:44)

Well, probably then the vet just does something with them. And we have a lot of abandoned cremated remains at our funeral home. 

Jill: (44:53)

So, what happens?

Jamie: (44:54)

We just keep them, because we really can't do anything with them. They're not trash. So, we just keep them. And we hope that the family will come back. And sometimes we reach out to the family, and we ask them for permission to scatter. And I would say scatter widely. I mean, you got to do something with them in my mind.

Jill: (45:13)

Okay, so scattering widely isn't—it's still a pollutant, but it's less… okay. 

Jamie: (45:21)

…it's less bad. But I would say that having them placed in a permanent place, like a cemetery, is a really good idea.

Jill: (45:31)

Can you bury them in your yard? 

Jamie: (45:33)

Yeah, I mean...

Jill: (45:34)

I know that's probably not good, right? Because it's all of the cremains together. It's not dispersed environmentally. But I suppose that's permissible.

Jamie: (45:44)

I mean, that's what I did with my dog's cremated remains. I buried him in my yard. I think you could. I mean, there's no cremation police. So yeah, you could.

Jill: (45:55)

So, let's say, so I am trying to be sensitive to the environment and I am potentially going to be cremated but not by fire. What are the other options?

Jamie: (46:07)

There's two other options. In Colorado, these are both available. They're not available everywhere. 

So, cremation by water is a great environmentally sustainable choice. It is where the body gets placed in a vessel within the system that we use—12 gallons of water and an alkali that is similar to liquid soap—and it quickly decomposes the body. Fire cremation takes a couple of hours. This takes a couple of hours.

Jill: (46:37)

Really, it is the same amount of time. That's shocking to me.

Jamie: (46:41)

And it's not got any gas. It's got a little bit of electricity that is used to raise the temperature of the water to 165 degrees. There are no emissions. And the solution that's created is actually the ultimate Miracle Gro. And the family could have some if they want it. And they can have some donated to a flower farm if they want. So, it is actually quite beneficial environmentally.

Jill: (47:08)

So, are you left with bones?

Jamie: (47:11)

Yeah, the bones are left, all the soft stuff decomposes, the bones are left. They go through that cremulator, and then the family gets back the cremated remains. But those are not a pollutant. They're just bone meal.

Jill: (47:25)

What is in the bones by fire cremation that's a problem?

Jamie: (47:30)

So, when they've been burned, they have no nutrients. They are really acidic. So, I think that's the biggest problem in those bones is they're just not—they're detrimental environmentally. But again, if you spread them far and wide, they're not going to cause too much trouble. But you don't want to plant a tree with them because they might kill that tree.

Jill: (47:48)

Okay, so there's water cremation. What is the other option?

Jamie: (47:58)

The other option is natural organic reduction, and it's actually body composting. I want to take a step back to say green burial, no embalming, a biodegradable casket or no casket, that is composting in the ground. Everything goes back to the earth. My understanding is within four to six years, if you're buried in a green way. So that is the most natural way to do it. That's how people have been doing it as long as there've been people.

Jill: (48:29)

How much might a compostable casket cost?

Jamie: (48:33)

It's not expensive. It's much less than a general casket. We have a plain pine box that's about $1,100. We also have a mahogany box that's compostable and that's $20,000. Then there's a hemp casket that's probably in the 12 to $1,500 range.

Jill: (48:51)

Do you need to use a casket?

Jamie: (48:53)

You don't need to use a casket, but you just mentioned about this green burial ground in Larkspur where you saw the body.

Jill: (49:03)

Well, I didn't see it in Larkspur. I watched a video separately of another green burial. I don't actually know where that was, but I was surprised to see the body.

Jamie: (49:15)

Yeah, so you could get buried in just a shroud, you know, just wrapped in a shroud. People do that. 

But my biggest concern is about the grieving people. In my view, the dead person is fine. So, they can go back to the earth in that way with nothing around them. But what worries me is the living people. And is it really hard on the living people to see the body?

(49:40) And also, what worries me about being buried with no casket is about the actual burial itself. Because we're shoveling dirt onto the person we love. And yes, they are dead. They're fine. But psychologically, it is very difficult [I imagine] to shovel dirt onto the person that we love. 

I have a story of a friend of mine whose dad was buried, and he was buried in a casket, but the cemetery in which he's buried has very compact dirt. And as we were shoveling, a big clod of dirt came and hit the casket and broke the lid. And she screamed, “stop!” And she still has nightmares about it. 

And I'm looking at your face and I can see now that you would understand why having a casket can be really helpful. But I have a friend whose mom was buried in a green way with no casket, and it felt beautiful to her family.

So, you could get prepared for it, but I think it's worth thinking about.

Jill: (50:46)

Yes, no, that is a really good story because I wasn't thinking about my face until you commented on it, and then I looked at it and it was not a great expression. And so, I wouldn't want, you know, if my family were to have that same reaction, I would not want them to experience that.

Jamie: (51:07)

Right. And it's funny, I mean, this stuff—I'm not kidding when I say this is so psychological. 

I was once talking to a daughter whose mom was going to need to get shipped to a different state in a plane. So, she was gonna go in the plane. And the daughter kept talking to me about what would it be like in the cargo of the plane. And then, so I said to her, “are you worried that your mom is going to get cold?” Like I could hear… [Right.] And I don't know that she could verbalize that. And she thought it was stupid because she knew her mom would be dead. But I said, “what if we wrap her in her favorite comforter so she won't be cold?” And that was really important. Like she needed to know her mom was tucked in. 

(51:51) And that's what I think burial is, is tucking our person in and we're taking them from where they are to where they need to be, which in our grieving helps us too. 

But let me... I get sidetracked… So let me get back to the natural organic reduction, the actual body composting outside of a plot, a cemetery plot, outside of the ground. So, in this case, what happens is the body gets placed in a vessel with organic matter. It gets attached to very good oxygenation and every so often rotated. And in a short while, but much longer than cremation—like I'm going to say 30 to 45 days—everything has turned to dirt. The body has literally turned to dirt. 

Jill: (52:41)

Even the bones?

Jamie: (52:41)

Not yet. So, the bones have to go through that cremulator to be made smaller and then they get put back in the box and they get turned to dirt.

Jill: (52:52)

Wow.

Jamie: (52:53)

And it's a lot of dirt because it's all the organic matter, which is about four times the body weight and the person's body weight. And you can't separate what's mom, and what was the organic matter we put in. So, it's a lot. It's maybe five or six hundred pounds, depending on what kind of system does it. In the system we use, it's 500 to 600 pounds. So, most families might not want all of that. [Right.] But they can have as much as they want. And then the rest gets donated for land restoration. 

Jill: (53:25)

Wow. Okay. So, if I am to choose one of these options, it would be relevant to me to know approximately the cost.

Jamie: (53:35)

Yes. So here, when we do fire cremation—that's going to be the least expensive. [Okay] But what I do want your listeners to understand is this is not a commodity. You could find a very, very cheap cremation and the very cheap crematories—that's how they get a lot of people to come to them. And sometimes they don't do the job that they're supposed to do. [Right.]

And so, it's really important that when you're choosing a funeral home, you choose one that has a good reputation, that has been around a long time, that has good reviews, that you know people have used them. I'm very biased towards family-owned funeral homes. So, I would encourage that.

Jill: (54:19)

Family owned as opposed to…?

Jamie: (54:21)

Corporately owned.

Jill: (54:23)

…and what would it mean to be corporately owned? Is it a franchise?

Jamie: (54:28)

I don't think it's a franchise. I think it's owned by one corporation. Like in the United States, there's a few huge corporations that own a lot of funeral homes. And they keep the family name because the family name is important in the community, but they're owned by shareholders. And so, I'm not a big believer in that because they have to hit certain goals.

Jill: (54:54)

And how would we know though, if the funeral home is owned by a family, or…?

Jamie: (55:01)

On websites, family-owned funeral homes are going to call that out—that they are owned by a family. Like the funeral home I work with has been owned by the same family for four generations. 

Jill: (55:15)

Alright.

Jamie: (55:15)

Yeah, so it's important. 

Okay, so pricing. So, if we're looking at fire cremation—we're going to be here in about the $3,500 range for just the disposition, you know, just taking care of the body.

But I would say, having ritual is super important. So, a memorial service is important. Maybe we're not involved in that in a fire cremation scenario, because there's no body to take places. But we'll start at about $3,500. 

Water cremation—we're going to be at about $4,500 to start. 

Body composting—we're going to be about $8,500 to start. 

Green burial—we're going to be, depending on if you have a casket or not, I'm going to say with the casket—that we're gonna be at about $8,500. So, pretty much the same as composting, but you need to have cemetery property, which can range anywhere from, I'm gonna say $3,000 to 30,000, 40,000. So wide range. 

And when you do these plans ahead of time, what a person like me does, they put together a contract based on today's prices.

Jill: (56:26)

Right.

Jamie: (56:27)

I would provide for you an insurance policy that is based on today's prices. So, we buy it, let's say you're going to do composting and with some other things, it's going to be $10,000. We're going to do a $10,000 insurance policy that holds the money. It could be paid for in a single payment if you want to. It could be paid over a year in the one I use, for the same as cash—I don't know that that's going to be true for everybody.

Or you could pay for it over a timeframe. So, in my own case, when I did it at 42, I paid for it over five years. And I paid more over those five years than the contract price because I got the benefit of life insurance that if, God forbid, I had gotten hit by a bus during those five years, not only were all the decisions made, but my family was not going to have to pay a dollar.

Jill: (57:25)

Okay.

Jamie: (57:26)

And I paid this off, I don't know, eight years ago already. I am avoiding all of the inflation.

Jill: (57:33)

Well, what if the technology has changed? How does that factor in?

Jamie: (57:38)

So at least for what I do, if somebody comes to me, like I have people who are planning for burial, but then they changed their mind when they learned about natural organic reduction and they wanted that instead. So, what I did is I just rewrote the contract to match that. 

Jill: (57:56)

I see. Okay.

Jamie: (57:57)

All that matters is that if you have this insurance policy, you cannot get the money out of it until a death, or you can lose a lot of money. You could cancel the policy, but that is not usually a very good idea, [okay] because you'd lose a lot of money. 

But so yes, it is changeable, at least to me. I don't know that every funeral home would do this, but at least to me.

Jill: (58:21)

Right, so you'd need to ask.

Jamie: (58:23)

Yeah, ask. And in Colorado, we can only charge for the things that we actually do. 

So, let's say you put a plan in place that was like: composting with a memorial service, with a laying in, and you're going to have a limousine, and a newspaper notice, and all these things—and you die, and you've outlived everybody you know, and your family doesn't want the limousine, and they don't want the newspaper notice. We have to return the money to them.

Jill: (58:48)

Now you said, “laying in.” What is that?

Jamie: (58:52)

So, in a natural organic reduction scenario, what we would do is have like a plain pine box at the front of the memorial service. And the body is in that box. And everybody who comes could put the organic matter into that box. 

And when somebody dies, having a ritual, having a physical activity to do, is really helpful. Because we don't have words for these things. So being able to tuck our person in, even to that box, can be really beautiful and helpful and healing.

Jill: (59:31)

What does that look like? What is someone given and where is the opening in the box for them to put it in?

Jamie: (59:37)

So, there's no lid on it. [Oh.] So, we might have a bowl full or a bucket full of the organic matter and then they just layer it into the box.

Jill: (59:46)

Oh, so you see the body?

Jamie: (59:48)

Well, typically we would put enough organic matter over the body that you're not really seeing the body.

Jill: (59:53)

I mean (chuckles), I feel like there's gonna be a toe sticking out (laughs)…

Jamie: (59:56)

Yeah, no, no, no. And the body would be wrapped in a shroud, too.

Jill: (1:00:00)

Okay, good, good.

Jamie: (1:00:01)

So, no. Our goal is to help people to feel as comforted and comfortable as possible. And you know, we're afraid of dead bodies.

Jill: (1:00:14)

Yes, as you've seen from my face when you describe these scenarios, I don't like a dead body.

Jamie: (1:00:20)

Yeah, and most of us don't like a dead body. [Okay.] Because we've never even been with a dead body. Why would we like a dead body? The only thing we know is like, from scary movies. 

I'll tell you for myself, with funeral directors and morticians, they know how to do this stuff, and they are sewing things and talking about things. And sometimes I'm like, “stop talking. I can't stand what you're saying.” [Yeah.] I don't touch the bodies. I don't—you know, I'm not part of that. 

(1:00:50) And when I first started, for many years, I was literally afraid of the bodies. I'm not anymore because I've realized they're not scary. Nothing. 

They're still the person that we love. Their essence, their soul, I really believe is gone. It's left the body. And if you've ever been with a person who dies, you can see it leave. 

Although my brother-in-law, who's a family practice position where I've had this conversation with him. I'm like, “you can see the change, that's the soul.” And he's like, “no, that's the electricity in their body stopping.” I'm like, “yeah, I don't agree with you.”

Jill: (1:01:30)

Tomato, tomato—right?

Jamie: (1:01:31)

Right—spiritual, not spiritual. I sometimes go now, if people who I know die and we're taking care of them at Feldman's, I sometimes go talk to them and go sit with them. And it's okay. And it gives their people a real sense of comfort when I say, “Oh, I went and sat with Bernie today.”

Jill: (1:01:52)

You know, what's interesting is I do have this sort of reaction to a dead body makes me feel uncomfortable. Yet when my mother died, and I was not—she died before I was able to arrive at the house—I lied down on the bed with her body. And I honestly didn't want to leave. And so maybe it was because I missed her actually dying. Maybe it was because it was my mother.

I did that and even looking back, I think, who was that—that I lied down with a dead body? You know, it seems like, so out of character for me, but it didn't feel that way at the time.

Jamie: (1:02:35)

Well, and it's an interesting thing—that's your mom [mm-hmm], and when she was dy-ing—you know like in the… she was sick before she died? [Yeah, mm-hmm] So when she was sick, were you laying down with her? Could you touch her in that way?

Jill: (1:02:37)

I did, actually, yeah. 

Jamie: (1:02:50)

She's still your mom!

Jill: (1:02:52)

…and she was in my bedroom—what had been my bedroom—that was the bedroom that she used. So, it felt comfortable too.

Jamie: (1:03:02)

Wow, I'm so glad you brought this up, because this is actually something I want people to understand. The person who dies is still the person. And so, we want to treat their body, I believe, with kindness and dignity and respect and love and recognize they're not trash just ‘cause they're dead. And your story really just underlines that. That's still your mama.

Jill: (1:03:33)

But what was interesting, I guess, too, I mean—interesting may be not the right word—it was the first time that I experienced having a family member die. You know, and I was in the home with the body. But after she died, and I took a little bit of while to get to the home where my parents live because they were a plane ride away from where I was. And my dad had not wanted to remove her body until I had arrived. 

And then after that, someone came, I guess, from the funeral home and it was a man in a dark suit. And we sat at the dining room table. And my mom had been ill. So, it was not a surprise that she passed, but we were totally unprepared for this conversation. It was like, as if she did die unexpectedly. 

And the questions that we were being asked, you know, what should she wear? And I was—I wanted her to wear a pink tracksuit because I thought she'd be most comfortable (laughs), but I was overruled. But I don't, you know, I just, these things that—yes, it makes sense that these questions would be asked, but we were not prepared. 

And I think because we just, we knew this was coming, but still, it hits you and you think, oh my gosh, now what's the next thing to do? I have no idea.

Jamie: (1:05:03)

Wouldn't it have been helpful if those plans had been made?

Jill: (1:05:07)

Yes! It would have been helpful. It would have been very helpful if those plans had been put in place, and we didn't have to make any of those decisions. 

So, I had just graduated law school. I didn't even know that this was available. And I think that might be the case for many— I was thirty… 30-year-olds…

Jamie: (1:05:31)

That's the case for 65-year-olds! I mean, I was telling you about my dad who won't do his plans. 

And this is a funny story, and also, just sort of tells you a little bit about that relationship that we don't need to get into. But my aunt died in September, and she had dementia. And I actually had wanted to put funeral plans in place for her. And she had wanted to put funeral plans in place, but she wasn't in charge, and she had dementia, and we didn't.

Everybody said, “okay.” You know—everybody—my brother just said, “you know, we don't need to do this.” So, we were doing the arrangement at the time of her death, and we got it done and you know—and it was hard. And there were lots of things to think about. I had had conversation with her, so I knew some things, but afterwards my dad's wife said, “I didn't even know you could do this ahead of time.” 

(1:06:25) So, you know, I mean—I think a lot of people don't know and a lot of people don't want to know. [Right.] And our society says—don't know. 

And I really do think that once somebody gets an illness, especially one that is difficult, it's harder to do it then. Because then we feel scared and we feel scared that, oh it must say, “I want that person to die,” if I'm putting a funeral plan in place. You know, like there's just this deeply psychological stuff happening. And so, I think doing it long before is really important.

Jill: (1:06:31)

What have we left undone with my plan?

Jamie: (1:07:04)

Oh, a million things and quite honestly, we don't have time to do it.

Jill: (1:07:07)

Okay, well, you know what, then that's going to lead me to my next question. Because as you started to tell me all the options, I thought, I bit off more than I could chew (laughs).

Jamie: (1:07:19)

Yeah, that's its own—you know what, we should’ve discussed this beforehand—that's its own thing. And really, I do meet with people for typically an hour, an hour and a half, to make all these decisions.

Jill: (1:07:31)

Okay, so is there any type of resource that you can make available to people for the questions that maybe they should be prepared to answer or—you know, think about—going into a meeting like this?

Jamie: (1:07:48)

Yeah, let me just throw out a few things right now. And I did share with you an article called “Body Talk” that I wrote, which is about all of the disposition options that are available in some places. So that's a great education. 

So, here's what I will share:

• You need to decide what's the method of disposition—fire cremation, green burial, you know—all these options we just talked about. 

• Where is a memorial service going to be? 

And stop thinking of this idea of, I don't need a funeral. I believe you. You're going to be dead. You don't need it. But your people need it. A communal event is important. It's helpful. It helps people to process their grief. So please provide it for your people. 

• You're going to want to decide who's going to be in charge of that memorial service. Is it going to be your priest? Is it a celebrant, your rabbi, who's going to be in charge? And please don't put your kids in charge because they should just be able to be there as mourners. 

• Do you want a newspaper notice? Sometimes that's important, but I find it for people it's getting less important.

Jill: (1:09:00)

Do you mean obituary? Or not… Yeah? Okay.

Jamie: (1:09:03)

Yeah, and I call it a notice because often it's just this time and place of the memorial service or funeral. An obituary is more of the story of someone's life, which you absolutely could have, too. So, think about that.

• Do you want that? And if you want that, maybe write some bullets for your people or even write your own obituary.

Jill: (1:09:24)

I'm actually—I'll provide something for people to use, maybe an AI tool and some prompts to try and do that themselves if they're interested.

Jamie: (1:09:33)

And there are professionals who will help you do that, too. 

• Do you want to have flowers? What kind of flowers? 

• And what kind of casket do you want to have if you're getting casketed? 

• What kind of clothes do you want to wear?

Jill: (1:09:36)

Is it the pink tracksuit?

Jamie: (1:09:49)

Yeah, their pink tracksuit, or maybe the dress you wore to somebody's wedding.

Jill: (1:09:53)

Oh, that's what they opted for with my mother (chuckles).

Jamie: (1:09:55)

There you go. That's very common. I have one client who said to me, “make sure I am wearing a bra. I always wear a bra. I sleep in a bra. I need a bra.” That's not that common that I hear that. I have had somebody else say, “if I'm wearing a bra, I will haunt you.” So, think of those things. 

• Do you want your people to be driven to the service? I think that's a good idea because they could all be together and nobody has to think.

Jill: (1:10:12)

Right, that is nice. Okay.

Jamie: (1:10:23)

So that's important. 

• How many death certificates are going to be needed?

Jill: (1:10:27)

Very important. [Yes.] How many would you recommend?

Jamie: (1:10:32)

I think 10 is probably a good number.

Jill: (1:10:34)

That's what I would say too. Okay.

Jamie: (1:10:36)

But they're going to be for banks, investments, real estate. I've had somebody who needed as many as 75 and I thought, wow, that person needed better estate planning.

Jill: (1:10:45)

And well, you could always go back and ask for more. [Yes, right, exactly] Okay. But 10 is a good number to start with.

Jamie: (1:10:49)

Yeah. And then the other things that you're going to do with the funeral planner are provide all of your vital information. 

• So that's going to be your birth date, your social security number, what you did for a living, what your education is. 

• Your mother's maiden name is going to likely be on the death certificate. Sometimes people can't think of that at the time of the death.

Jill: (1:11:13)

Yes, I actually—when I have this personal important information sheet, so I have people include their parents' names, you know, the maiden name for their parent. Because you know, sometimes men will take the female's name, or they'll do a combined name. [Right.] Or you'll have same sex couples, [right] you know, taking one name or the other or also doing a combined name.

Jamie: (1:11:37)

That's right. And different states are going to have different requirements from the death certificate, but the funeral planner will know what those requirements are. So, provide that. What you really want is just to make it so it's turnkey for your people. That all they have to do is make a phone call to get these plans put into action.

Jill: (1:11:57)

You know, if the person has just made this plan, or I assume there are some things you have to type up, could they get a copy of it as well? And they can keep that with their documents and then they just include your contact information or, you know, the funeral's contact information.

Jamie: (1:12:13)

Right. So that's what I do when I'm with a client. I do everything while they're in my office. They get a copy of it. Then the insurance company sends them a policy to show—here's where the money is. And I send them a refrigerator magnet that says they have these plans at Feldman's. You know, it's funny because a lot of people don't have magnetic refrigerators anymore, but I still send it. And I give them wallet cards, so their people don't have to remember.

Jill: (1:12:18)

That's great. Okay. I do have a magnetic refrigerator and dishwasher, so send me a magnet.

Jamie: (1:12:47)

Good. Okay.

But it says you have plans at Feldman Mortuary. Unless you want to do stuff in Colorado, probably you shouldn't have one.

Jill: (1:12:56)

So, we planned this as if I was in Colorado, but what if I move? What happens?

Jamie: (1:12:59)

The money is held by this third party. So, if you move away, it goes with you. Any funeral home…

Jill: (1:13:08)

That is very helpful.

Jamie: (1:13:11)

Yeah. Any funeral home could submit their contract and get the money out of that plan. But when you are doing this, it is very important that you ask how that will be handled. No funeral home is going to say, “I'm going to honor those 2025 prices from Feldman Mortuary.” They're going to use their prevailing prices. And so, you want to know, is all the growth—that insurance policy’s going to grow—[Right.] Is all that growth going to be available to you? Or is it just the face value of the insurance policy? So, ask questions.

Jill: (1:13:47)

Who do I ask that question—you?

Jamie: (1:13:49)

The funeral planner.

Jill: (1:13:51)

Okay, so we have all of this set up and we feel good about it, but obviously you live in Denver, Colorado and I live in Ferndale, Michigan. If I want to find my own Jamie Sarche, where might I go? How might I find you locally to me?

Jamie: (1:14:12)

Yeah, so what I would do is ask around for people who've used different funeral homes in your area. What was their experience like with those funeral homes? Check reviews. Almost every funeral home is going to have a person who does what I do. 

I don't know if they're going to do it in the way that I do it, though. So that's something to think about is—like, really one of the things that I think sets me apart from a lot of people—is that I really want you to make decisions that match your values. And so, I'm going to talk to you about a lot of things. 

A lot of people in my position will just be like, “Okay, so you want fire cremation? Okay, great. Let's do that. What kind of urn do you want?” And I will always ask a lot of questions, and not a lot of people do.

Jill: (1:15:01)

Okay. One thing I think that was very helpful when we connected is I saw all this speaking that you had done. [Yeah.] And so, I got a really good sense of your personality and your demeanor and how you might approach this topic. I don't know that that's something that a lot of people in your position do, [no] but certainly that was an easy way to get to know you in advance. 

So, I guess it's just a little bit of research that we would have to do, but at least now we're armed with the information of what we maybe should expect. So, if we feel like maybe, it's not going so well, we're allowed to leave. We don't have to still plan or buy the policy.

Jamie: (1:15:45)

That's right. And you know what? That is the greatest point. And I'm so happy that's kind of where we're going to end with this because that's why when you do it ahead of time—you can decide, oh I don't feel good. I'm going to leave. 

If your person, your person's body is in the care of that funeral home, it's much harder to leave. 

Jill: (1:16:07)

You're not leaving. 

Jamie: (1:16:08)

Right. You're not leaving. You're just going to live through it.

Jill: (1:16:11)

You're just going to do it. Okay, well, Jamie, thank you so much. 

This has been a really great conversation, and I was so looking forward to this conversation because I knew almost—I knew nothing, like I said. So now I feel like I could actually figure out on my own, you know, how I want to move forward with this and feel like I know the type of person that I would want to work with. And having been a little bit educated, I also know, like I said, if it's not something that I'm comfortable with, whatever the environment or the person, I know that I can do something else.

Jamie: (1:16:51)

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Such a pleasure. And I'm just so grateful that you're doing these discussions because—yeah, we need to know these things that we're not prepared by our society to know.

Jill: (1:17:06)

I hope this episode gave you some clarity—and maybe even a little comfort—about a topic most of us avoid until we have no choice.

As a reminder, Jamie Sarche is the Director of Pre-arranged Funeral Planning at Feldman Mortuary in Denver, Colorado. You can reach her directly at jamie@feldmanmortuary.com, and learn more at feldmanmortuary.com. I’ll drop all of that in the show notes, along with a few other resources we mentioned.

You’ll find a link to Jamie’s TED talk, her article “Body Talk,” and even a ChatGPT-powered template for writing your own obituary. I also included a link to that painting we talked about. And because some moments deserve to be remembered, you’ll also find a link to a photo of me and my friend, Kristen, crossing the finish line at the Boston Marathon. She’s the one in the “Cheer for Jill” tank.

And since we spent this episode planning my funeral—here’s how I’d want to be honored when my time comes:

• Foster a dog. 

• Pick up trash. 

• Be kind to each other.

• Show grace—to yourself and to others.

That’s the legacy that matters to me.

Thanks for listening to The Death Readiness Podcast. If this conversation got you thinking, share it with someone you love. These talks are a lot less overwhelming when we don’t wait until we’re in crisis to start them. Until next time—take care of yourself. And start where you are. 

Disclaimer: (01:18:48)

Before we wrap up, I want to remind you that while I am an attorney, I'm not your attorney. The Death Readiness Podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It does not provide legal advice. Use of the information from this podcast without careful analysis and review by your attorney, CPA, and/or financial advisor may cause serious adverse consequences. I provide no warranty or representation concerning the appropriateness or legal sufficiency of this information as to any individual's tax and related planning. For legal guidance tailored to your unique situation, consult with a licensed attorney in your state. To learn more about the services I offer, you can visit DeathReadiness.com. 

April: (01:19:37)

Hi, I'm April Jill's daughter. Thanks for listening to The Death Readiness Podcast. My mom always says that death readiness isn't just about planning, it's about the people you leave behind and the legacy you create for them. We hope today’s episode helps you think about how to take care of yourself and your loved ones, now and in the future. If you liked what you heard today, share this episode with someone you care about. Follow our show for free on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you're listening right now.