Intro: Welcome to The Death Readiness Podcast. I'm Jill Mastroianni, an attorney with more than a decade of practical experience in trusts and estates, here to demystify the complexities of planning for the inevitable. This podcast is your guide to navigating estate planning and end of life preparation with clarity, compassion, and empowerment. Let’s spark the conversation, shift perspectives, and explore how to embrace death readiness together, courageously and thoughtfully.

Jill Mastroianni: (00:33)

Today, I'm joined by Mollie Lacher, a leader in the after loss services industry and a co-founder of Professionals of After Loss Services. If you've listened to previous episodes, you might remember my conversations with Julie Ulrich and Megan Malik, two other after loss professionals. I chose to highlight this emerging profession early in the podcast because it's a field that many people have never heard of, but it's a field that provides critical life-changing support for those navigating the complexities of loss. Whether it's helping families settle estates, organizing a lifetime of belongings, or guiding difficult conversations about death and planning ahead, after loss professionals fill a vital gap in the estate settlement world. 

My hope is that by sharing these stories, more people who need these services will know they exist and can benefit from them. I also wanted to showcase Mollie, Julie, and Megan, specifically, because each of them brings a unique background and perspective to this work. Mollie, as you'll hear today, comes from a project management background. Julie has extensive experience in personal concierge work and legacy preservation, while Megan brings expertise in grief education and emotional preparedness. Together, they represent different but equally valuable approaches to after loss care. 

Mollie Lacher’s journey into after loss services began with personal experience, first navigating the complexities of estate administration after the loss of her father, and later supporting her sister-in-law through the overwhelming logistics that followed her brother-in-law’s passing. With a background in project management, Mollie used her expertise in organization and process improvement to bring structure to an area where most people feel lost, managing the administrative, legal, and financial tasks that come after a loved one's death.

Mollie is the founder of Sunny Care Services and has become a recognized leader in estate organization and administration. She not only helps families and executors navigate this difficult process, but she has also expanded her work to serve as an executor and administrator, stepping into one of the most demanding roles in estate settlement when families need a neutral, experienced professional to take on the responsibility. 

Beyond her direct work with families, Mollie is passionate about destigmatizing conversations around death and estate planning and helping people understand what needs to be done before and after a loss so that they feel prepared rather than overwhelmed. Today, we'll explore how Mollie built her business, the lessons she's learned along the way, and why this work is so important. 

Mollie, thank you so much for being here with us today.

Mollie Lacher: (03:48)

Okay, thanks for having me, Jill.

Jill: (03:50)

I wanted to start out with how you got involved in the after-loss services industry. As you know, I've had a couple of guests who are involved in that type of work. And I think everybody comes to it a little bit differently. And their services evolve differently based on their unique experiences. And I know that your previous experience was in project management. Can you tell us how you got involved in after loss services. And then we'll kind of look at how your services have evolved based on your experiences and your background.

Mollie: (04:28)

Yeah, I think a common thread you've probably seen too, Jill, which I've noticed is you really do find yourself in this position a lot if you are coming off the heels of loss. Like it seems to be that's the common thread that binds us all is having gone through this and seeing how messy it is firsthand and just how awful it can be. And that was exactly my experience. You know, my dad died in 2012 and he was a practicing malpractice attorney at the time. So that was a whole experience watching my brother sift through that process and what that looked like and how involved it was. It really became his full-time job almost, to manage that and to figure out how do we close out his estate and deal with everything that was left behind for him.

Jill: (05:19)

And your dad being an attorney, do you think that he knew how to prepare to make things easier for you guys or cared to do that preparation?

Mollie: (05:32)

You know, it is very funny you asked that, Jill. We are in a situation right now for my dad's estate, who died more than 12 years ago at this point. So, no. In fact, he had documents drawn up, so we'll give him that because I feel like from your experience probably too, a lot of attorneys just don't even get their documents set up, which is wild to me.

Jill: (06:00)

So, he did not draft them himself.

Mollie: (06:02)

He didn't draft them himself, but he did not have an attorney to ask the hard questions it seemed like. So, he had actually set up a trust, but had named a corporate trustee to fit in that spot. And as you know, corporate trustees, they require a certain amount of assets. They take a certain percentage. So, it needs to make sense for them too. And his estate did not make sense for the way that this trust was constructed. 

And so, we're actually working right now actively on figuring out how do we break this trust essentially, because it made zero sense for his life and what his estate had. And we're working through mineral rights, which is very difficult. Every estate attorney, when I say mineral rights, they say, oh wow, they are so complicated. They are the worst. And they are.

Jill: (06:59)

They're time consuming as well. And sometimes the value is so minimal. For anyone who isn't familiar, mineral rights refer to the ownership of underground resources like oil and gas. And these rights are a form of real property. So, if someone passes away owning mineral rights in their name alone, those rights typically have to go through probate in the state where they're located.

This is called an ancillary probate or a separate legal process in that state in addition to the probate happening where the person lived. In my experience, mineral rights are often in a different state than that person's home state, which means the beneficiaries under the will or those who would inherit under the laws of intestate succession if there is no will, may have to navigate probate in more than one state.

Mollie: (07:58)

Exactly. And so, we are trying to figure out if the juice is worth the squeeze and that's

Jill: (08:06)

Yes, and that's the big question with mineral rights because of how time consuming it is. Do you want to just say, okay, we're not going to deal with it and hands off. 

But Mollie, I wanted to go back to what you were saying about the corporate fiduciary, because I think that's a misunderstanding that a lot of people have, and maybe your dad had the same misunderstanding. You might, for example, in your trust or your will, you know you can name a corporate executor or corporate trustee of a testamentary trust. You really need to talk with that corporate fiduciary in advance because that corporate fiduciary can tell you whether or not you are a good fit and also can look at the document and see if maybe there are some things that can be revised in the language while you're still around that could make the situation more amenable to them, but a lot of people just stick somebody in there without going through that due diligence process and the corporate trustee doesn't want to take it and they don't have to take it.

Mollie: (09:17)

They don't have to take it; they can decline and then you're really in a tough spot.

Jill: (09:21)

Exactly. So, I imagine that's part of what you're working through.

Mollie: (09:26)

Exactly. So, my dad devised his trust in a way that only corporate fiduciaries could serve. And so, then he's really, you know, trapped us in this vicious cycle of everyone we have approached is declining to serve. So, we are in this loop of ‘we can't get someone to fit in the spot to then handle the mineral rights and then do what we want with them’. So, yes, absolutely. 

And not to jump ahead, but in my estate organization work that I offer, when I see clients who are naming corporate fiduciaries, that is my number one question is, have you actually had a conversation with them? There's a big company here in town that Jill, you would know, and I think a lot of people like to name them. And they have a big problem with folks not telling them that they've been named and then come time for that person to pass away and they're not a good fit.

And then, you know, people put in their contingent executors and trustees, but I think they think that's a worst-case scenario situation and they don't sometimes don't give a lot of thought to who that contingent is. And the reality is that contingent's now up, you know, they're the person who's going to have to do that. So, did you really mean that when you put your contingent in? 

So, all that to say, I couldn't agree more that corporate fiduciaries is a big question mark a lot of people don't understand enough about and sadly, I don't think enough estate planning attorneys are pushing back on their clients to say, hey, let's make sure this works first. I think that there can be this kind of rush to get someone named, to get someone slotted in that spot for the documents without actually vetting that person or company.

Jill: (11:05)

That is so true. And a lot of times when you're doing your estate planning documents, you think, okay, I've signed it, it's done. But do you have a plan? Well, you don't have a plan if the people you have appointed to serve, or the entity you've appointed to serve is unable to do so. And that's really difficult for the corporate fiduciary as well to realize after the fact, that they've been appointed and have to do kind of, all the due diligence at that point only to determine that it's not a good fit. It's not efficient for your beneficiaries and not for the corporate fiduciary. So, taking that little bit of extra step in the beginning is all part of the planning process.

Mollie: (11:52)

Absolutely. So, I guess to thread this pulley through, so my dad died in 2012. That was a whole mess for my brother to figure out. Being an active practicing attorney, you know, there's a lot that has to be done.

Jill: (12:05)

So, your dad was still practicing law. He had an active practice, and he was not retired.

Mollie: (12:10)

Not retired at all.

Jill: (12:13)

That's just a really important piece also, is that if you are running a business, if you have employees, these are all additional elements that you really need to properly address in your plan.

Mollie: (12:26)

Completely. And you know, my dad's death was similar to my brother-in-law's death. So, my dad was on hospice for a fair amount of time, and even in him being in hospice, him and my stepmother really hadn't worked on like winding up the business at all or doing any active steps. And I know there's a lot of complexities that come with active cases and attorneys passing away. 

And I'm fully, you know, sympathetic to that, but in a similar vein, you know, my brother-in-law, when he went in, he had been a St. Jude kid all his life. He, you know, battled cancer when he was a kid. And because of that had a lot of adult complications, specifically heart complications, which happens a lot when you get treatment in the seventies, you know, they just kind of nuked your whole body back then, instead of the targeted treatments they have today. 

So, he had already gone to Cleveland Clinic for two open heart surgeries, and was going in for a third minimally invasive procedure. And when we saw him before he went, he looked like a man in heart failure. He looked really sick. Yet none of the family could say, hey, what happens if Matt doesn't make it through this? Like, what should we do?

You know, I think when things are so close, you almost can't have those conversations because it makes it real. And I'm sure that's the same way with my dad is it's like, my dad and my stepmom; it's so hard to recognize this is the end. And so, I'm sympathetic to that. 

But then after my brother-in-law died, watching my sister-in-law, who had, I think, a three or a four-year-old at the time, try to figure out, what do we do about his student loans? Okay, how do I set up social security survivor benefits? Hey, can you call his dentist and just say he's not coming next week? All of these big and small things were weighing on her so heavily on top of just the trauma of losing her husband. 

So, I took that as the impetus to really get interested in this and learn.

Jill: (14:29)

Mollie, when was that? When did your brother-in-law pass away?

Mollie: (14:32)

He passed away in 2017.

Jill: (14:35)

Okay. So, you had the experience with your father's passing, but that wasn't alone an impetus necessarily to get involved in this work. And what were you doing at that time that your father passed?

Mollie: (14:50)

Actually, I just graduated from graduate school, Vanderbilt. Okay. That was another reason why I think dad's experience was so different for me. My brother is 18 years older than me. So, he was kind of the adult in the situation. I was a young, married, recently out of graduate school. I kind of said to my brother last night when we were talking about this, said, I wasn't really lucid, if that's the word I could use for when dad died. I wasn't aware of the adult things going on when he died, but I felt a lot more lucid and aware by all the things my sister-in-law was dealing with five years later. 

So yeah, I had always held on to this feeling after dad died that this has got to be better, right? Like there's got to be a better way to move through this. And it wasn't until Matt, my brother-in-law died in 2017 that I figured I should do something about it. 

So yeah, I was a full-time project manager at Bridgestone, which is headquartered here in Nashville. And I just kind of took this on as a pet project. I love to learn. I love the entrepreneurial lifestyle. I was pretty naive and just thought, oh I'll explore this. 

There's this great organization here in Nashville called the Entrepreneur Center. And at the time they had this program called Preflight. And so Preflight's whole premise was you bring a business concept to the table, and we help you structure it. We help you put it into a business plan. We help you figure out who are your competitors. What should your pricing model be? Cause you know, in those early days, it's hard to just structure yourself. It's hard to hold yourself accountable. And what I liked about the EC was every week you came, you learned about a topic, and you had to bring in homework of, okay. Where's your thing? Where's your website? What's your pricing model? All of that. 

So, at the end of your Preflight program, you actually have to pitch your concept to this big room of a hundred different advisors and investors and other entrepreneurs. Yeah, super intimidating. I really was kind of thinking; I don't know if I care to do that. But I really wanted to see this through. So, I slapped together a website, I slapped together a business name. I put together everything I thought I had and just kind of went up there with this mentality of, okay, you know, I don't know exactly what I have, but I'm just going to give it a go. And that was a fun little exploration is really what I thought.

Jill: (17:29)

And you were working full time?

Mollie: (17:31)

Uh huh. I was still working full time at Bridgetown. So, I pitched my idea, and I felt like the response was way more than I was expecting. I mean, people came up to me and continue to say, you have to start this. You have to do this. I had such a terrible time with my mother-in-law. I had such a terrible time with my grandmother or my aunt or my spouse, you have to do this business. This is so needed. 

And so, I believe that the Lord gives you signs that you're supposed to like follow a certain path. And so, I took that as a real nudge to take a leap of faith and pursue this business. 

So, I wouldn't recommend exactly how I did it because I just kind of cold turkey, you we even say this in the PALS training program, which we'll have to get to, but in a training program where I teach people how to do this kind of work, you know. Leaving your full-time job cold turkey is a really rough way to go about it as you're experiencing, too. It's not for the faint of heart. And I had also subsequently gotten pregnant with my daughter, who's my second child, the same month I left my business.

Jill: (18:49)

Oh, that's a lot of change. You might as well move into a new house too.

Mollie: (18:54)

Well, actually we had,  

Jill: (18:56)

Okay, so you did that. You did all those things.

Mollie: (18:58)

So funny enough, we really just did it all and I was so sick and oh gosh, I wouldn't go back to those days if you paid me, honestly, but I really did just cold turkey, leave my job and start this business. 

I mean, Jill, like so different from you, you have so much estate experience, I knew only my personal experience. I had no idea even what estate administration meant. I didn't understand what an estate was. I didn't understand what probate was. I had just heard these terms, but I had to learn everything that you went to law school for, essentially.

Jill: (19:33)

Although I will say you learn very little in law school. I would say pretty much nothing about estate administration. I had one class. It was a Wills and Trusts class. And it was really overview and more theoretical. So, it is in the trenches practicing that you learn that type of stuff. Did you move from Bridgestone to Nissan?

Mollie: (19:59)

I did Nissan when I was in graduate school, so I went from Nissan to Bridgestone.

Jill: (20:04)

Okay, so when I was at an event here, a 1 Million Cups event here, I was at a table with this woman and we were chatting and exchanged business cards and she saw on my card that I have The Death Readiness Podcast and she said, I need to talk to you. 

And she had listened to my podcast, and she was just raving about this wonderful woman who had worked at Nissan with her and was really trying to start the conversation about getting your affairs in order and her name was Mollie Lacher. She mentioned you and I thought this is crazy. Here I was at this little event in Ferndale, Michigan and this woman is raving about Mollie Lacher. And you were still in grad school, so you hadn't even gone through. 

Mollie: (20:49)

No. She must just keep up with me on LinkedIn. You know, I love her. And she, I really tried to figure out a path at Nissan and she was a big help in that. So, yeah, at the time I was really interested in HR and she works in HR, but she was such a big advocate. I think she has just kept up with me purely on LinkedIn, which is huge. And that's really kind. I love that even the people I met so far in the past are like receiving the ripples of what we're trying to do, which is like start a new conversation about this. I think that's awesome.

Jill: (21:22)

Well, I first heard about you from a coworker and his husband's mother had passed away and they had connected with you to help with the estate administration and then also separately worked with you to get their estate organization in order. And I had seen that repeatedly as a real need, you know, someone to fill that estate organization space and to help people walk through those steps. And I didn't know that anyone did it until he told me about you. 

And then you and I worked together on some rather complicated cases. Those were situations where people who, you know, were appointed to serve in the fiduciary capacity as executor really needed more help, which was entirely to be expected, knowing what the administrative burden is. But of course, a lot of people don't expect that until they've gone through it. 

So, I know that you obviously saw this need, but did you have trouble finding other people who did this same type of work? Because I want to talk to you about you co-founded this organization, the Professionals of After Loss Services, PALS. And I think that might have happened around the time that I started working with you.

Mollie: (22:55)

Yeah, probably. So, we founded PALS in 2021. Yeah, exactly. So, when I started this, I mean truly, I couldn't find a competitor. My competitive landscape in that program I mentioned, Preflight, was estate attorneys, kind of, you know, sometimes, maybe. And then there were some technology companies trying to take a pass at this. They're not even around anymore, but now the landscape is pretty saturated actually, which is funny. And truly that was what I could find, but no one that really fit the exact niche that I had. 

It was funny, I actually, guess another member of that program with me in pre-flight, he is in the benefits space and was reading this HR benefits magazine and read about this woman named Esther Pipoly who owned a company called Loss of Life Advocates. And brought it to my attention, and said, you know, this sounds a lot like what you do, y'all should connect. And she was the first person I had ever found who did similar work to what I did. 

So, Esther and I connected and kind of ran our separate companies. She's in Texas and I'm in Tennessee, obviously. So, we were pretty far from each other, but I so enjoyed having another person in this space with me. And then next came along Rachel Donnelly, who I remember found me in 2020, because I remember it was like in the dead of the pandemic, and we just started connecting informally. Then shortly after that, a woman named, Jasmine Hathaway, then found me also. And I think a lot of it was like online and referrals. But so those were the four people I knew that were doing this for a long time.

Jill: (24:36)

Nationwide, the four people you knew nationwide.

Mollie: (24:38)

That was it. And so, we came together and started networking, just informally, hey, how'd you deal with this? Hey, what should I do about this problem? And it was really just great to commiserate.

Jill: (24:52)

So, what I wanted to also really get at, because this is, I think, something that we're trying to get across as part of the industry generally, is what do you call yourselves? If there's somebody listening who wants someone to help with these types of services or maybe wants to do this type of work, what you call yourself has been a point of confusion because there wasn't really a you know, society or group of individuals doing this type of work. It's not like you're looking for an attorney. You're not looking for a financial advisor. And I wonder what were you, Rachel, and Jasmine calling yourselves before you came together? How were you describing what you did?

Mollie: (25:41)

It was actually our first order of business, was, what do we call ourselves? Let's like get on the same page about this so that we can start to spread the word and be consistent. So, we came up with the term after loss professional. It would be funny actually now, I wish I had it in front of me, the doc of all of the potential names we were coming up with. I mean my husband jokingly has always referred to me as the Angel of Death and I don't think that really catches on, you know? 

Jill: (26:08)

No. There's something, yeah, something that's not really inviting about that.

Mollie: (26:13)

It's not, but you're right. There was no name for what we called ourselves. And so, we really landed on after loss professional because we wanted to make it clear when we come into your space and you know, we know that ‘professional’ is kind of the squishy term, but consultant scares a lot of people away. Concierge can scare a lot of people away, but we wanted to make it clear. We're bringing a professionalism to the table in terms of what you're dealing with after you lose someone. 

And you know, death is a heavy word. And I think we should get better about that. I mean, I love that you just straight out called your podcast Death Readiness. I think that we need to say that more instead of, you know, dancing around it. But after loss felt the most palatable and the most explanatory for what we did.

Jill: (26:58)

Well, and I think after loss, that is a good term because when I think about loss with respect to individuals, it of course includes a death, but after an incapacity, after some sort of situation where a person who was able to manage a certain realm of information and tasks and relationships is no longer able to do that. So, it's how do you function moving forward with that loss? And in certain circumstances, I'm sure that that person can recover and come back to capacity, but the uncertainty that comes in those periods where someone is incapacitated, then of course, following a death, that's the space where you and other after loss professionals can come in and provide some really valuable assistance.

Mollie: (28:04)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's what I think that we were trying to communicate to families is, you know, if you don't know where to go after you’ve lost someone, we're a great first call because we then can connect you with the other parties that you would need to get connected with and keep them all in the loop with you. Kind of serving as this like overarching project manager type, which is kind of full circle considering that's my background.

Jill: (28:31)

Right. And I think that was part of what was so attractive to me about working with you is seeing the systems that you had in place. It wasn't just, you know, one off for this or that. And of course, I think the circumstances that we dealt with together were very individualized, but we had the foundation of, you know, the processes that you had in place to make sure that your work was being done efficiently alongside the legal work that I was doing. 

Mollie: (29:03)

Yeah, absolutely.

Jill: (29:05)

I have not Googled after loss professional. I don't know if the PALS website comes up if I were to do that. But if someone is looking for an after loss professional, who would they reach out to? And I don't know if there are resources on the website that are available to the general public to find that type of person. 

Mollie: (29:28)

Yeah. So, the organization we called ourselves was Professionals of After Loss Services. And then the individuals who serve in this capacity are called after loss professionals. So, Professionals of After Loss Services, also known as PALS, has a great website where you can actually click on the top right corner for right now, Find a Pro, and it will show you who are the practicing after loss professionals by region and those have been vetted by our leadership team to make sure that you are actively up and running, that you have a legitimate after loss business, you have insurance and all of the things that would be required.

Jill: (30:09)

Right. That you've actually been doing it. You are not just hanging a shingle yesterday and appearing on the list tomorrow.

Mollie: (30:17)

Yes, and that's always been the fine line is we're such a new industry. We are such a new industry. So, finding that balance of you need to have experience, but also how much experience can you have at this industry, as far as we know, is roughly four years old. Then that's hard, you know? I mean, like we joke, that Rachel, Jasmine and I are kind of the dinosaurs having been in this seven years, eight, you know years. It's funny that that's the oldest we can find, the most tenured you can find in this industry, at least doing exactly what we do.

Jill: (30:53)

And what is the website where someone could go?

Mollie: (30:56)

Yeah, afterlosspros.com.

Jill: (30:58)

OK, so afterlosspros.com. But I'm going to include a link in the show notes just so that nobody has to write it down while they're driving or walking their dog, or anything like that. Mollie, I know that originally you were doing exclusively after loss work. But I know that you had since transitioned to also serving as appointed executor in certain situations. And I was just wondering if you could tell us how you've made that transition. And it almost feels like to me as an uber after loss professional, because you're not just assisting the executor, you are the executor. You are actually managing all of those things and not just handholding.

Mollie: (31:50)

Right. I really got into that. It was probably in, so I started my business in early 2018 and was doing after loss work. I think you've explained this at this point, Jill, but so after loss work is really where we come alongside executors and surviving family to help them get their job done. We're not sitting in, as I call it, the driver's seat. We're not in the executor role. 

We're helping the executor get their job done, and assisting them and putting them in the right direction and initiating processes and all that. But in the executor role, you are in the driver's seat. And I started to get questions in 2020 of, hey, actually this position, this executor work is for the birds. Can you just be the executor? I don't want to do this job at all. 

And I think generally in America, we do have a crisis on our hands where so many, I don't know what term you like the best, Jill, but one that I felt like has resonated a lot with what I've seen is “adult orphan.” So, these are individuals who maybe don't have family. They don't really have close friends, unfortunately, or at least they don't have close friends they want to name in the role as executor. Right. They don't want to put that on them. And so, these are folks that are pretty abundant in America and don't really have someone to name.

Jill: (33:10)

And I think that's where they go and name a corporate fiduciary that they've not spoken with.

Mollie: (33:15)

Right. Exactly. And so, I started getting a lot of questions from trust companies who had been named that determined they weren't a good fit or attorneys that said, hey, they want to name me. I don't do that. Can you serve in this position? And, you know, clients who just didn't want to do this job anymore. 

So, I did a lot of research into what that would mean for my business and for me, and decided to offer executor services to families that need a third party. So, I can get my business named in a will for families that need to just or want to just name a third party, someone they don't know, but that they could pay. And then also after somebody has passed and nobody wants to serve or there is no one to serve, then I can also be named as the administrator for estates that need that. 

And you know, don't get me started on the whole executor, executrix, administrator, personal representative, that one took me forever to figure out. I actually vehemently despise “Executrix”. Like I think it's just the worst term I've ever heard in my life, if I may. And so, I refuse to be called Executrix.

Jill: (34:28)

For anyone who doesn't know, that is technically the female version of the role. I always use the word executor, administrator instead of the feminine counterparts. I do think that it's a little bit antiquated to use those terms.

Mollie: (34:46)

Quite antiquated. But yeah, so I first started out, you know, I've been named in a fair amount of documents at this point, but to date, no one has passed that I am named in. So, I have yet to see that fully through, but I have been named as administrator for a fair amount of estates where, like I said, nobody was willing to serve or nobody wanted to serve or there were contentious situations and we needed a third party. We needed someone who had neutrality to help settle this. 

So, I have learned a lot being in the role of executor and being in that driver's seat. And quite honestly, sometimes I begrudge it a lot. Being an executor is a lot more responsibility and it's a lot more onus. I mean, the decisions are yours ultimately, and that feels heavy sometimes. However, I think that it's so important for me to continue to serve as executor because it makes me also a better after loss professional for clients that need that help, who still want to be executor. You know, you kind of have to know what it's like to be in their shoes to do your job well.

Jill: (35:56)

Right. You know what it feels like. And I think that also further reiterates that you're not doing anyone any favors naming that person as the executor. It is a hard job. And you're stepping in in situations where you do not have an emotional stake or attachment, and you don't have the history of the family relationships. But someone who is in that role and has all of that other baggage. Baggage, I don't necessarily mean that term, but the other weight and history and complications. So, if you're finding it difficult, you can just imagine how a family member is finding it difficult, if there's not just the administrative burden, but also the emotional burden and dynamics of communicating with the various, you know, beneficiaries and family members.

Mollie: (36:53)

Yeah, I mean, I do feel like it is so rewarding when I'm able to step into the executive role for families where, for instance, I have a client right now and the parents lost their son very suddenly, very traumatically. They're in a different state than where he lived, and he had no spouse or children. And I love that I'm able to help them so much. You know, like I am able to take on this burden for them because they do feel so much emotional weight just in processing his loss, you know? And they're not thinking clearly, and it can really cloud a lot of your processing and ability to do simple tasks. 

You know, grief is a really sticky thing that prevents us from doing even day-to-day stuff, you know, in the normal way that we would. And so, I feel confident in that and just being able to continue to serve in that capacity is a huge lift for some of these families.

Jill: (37:50)

In a previous episode, I talked to Megan Malik, who you know, she's also an after loss professional. And she has developed a book, A New Path, it's called, to help family members who are named in this capacity, sort of travel through that journey of the administrative burden and the grief burden, because having those two things together, grief and administrative, I guess, overwhelm, you might say, those are two very difficult things to manage alone. And when you put them together, it can be very difficult.

Mollie: (38:37)

On top of the fact that, you know, I say this all the time to my clients, they feel shame sometimes that they don't understand what they're supposed to do or be doing. And I say, you hopefully have not had close losses in abundance in your life. Hopefully you haven't served as executor 20 times or maybe even two times. Hopefully this is your first foray in this. And why would anyone expect you to know what you're supposed to be doing in the first time that you're doing a job with a lot of legalese, a lot of unclear terms thrown at you, forms that you need to fill out. Why do we expect as a country for these families who are grieving to all of a sudden be experts in estate administration? I think it's insane. 

And so, I say, you need to let that go. Of feeling like you're not smart enough or capable enough to figure this job out, that's not what it's about. This isn't meant to be something that you're an expert in and hopefully you're not because that means you've had a hard life. You've had a lot of loss. So, I think that I try to change the narrative of it's a good thing you don't know how to do this job because that means you've thankfully been shielded from a lot of sad loss in your life.

Jill: (39:51)

I think that's true. And I like that you said that, you know you shouldn't know how to do all this stuff. The average person should not know how to do all this stuff, even though society expects you to figure it out on a dime. That is a really good point. 

And, Mollie, you are serving as a fiduciary, whether executor or administrator, only in the state of Tennessee. Is that right? 

Mollie:

Correct.

Jill: 

Okay. Have you connected with other professionals who are serving as individual fiduciaries as opposed to corporate fiduciaries? And I guess, if so, was it easier to come by those people than the after loss professionals, who weren't even necessarily called that back when you started? 

Mollie: (40:41)

Yeah, no, back when I was exploring, should I do this work of taking on the capacity of executor for families, I did a lot of exploration into who does this. And like you said, not in a corporate capacity, but individuals. And it's so funny to me how different state to states are in terms of like, is this an industry or not? 

For instance, in California, in Colorado, this is a whole industry of individual fiduciaries who serve in this capacity. And I think it's so interesting that in Tennessee, there's really not many. I know of maybe two or three that do this in Tennessee, but I know a lot that do this in California and Colorado. And those were the main areas where I could find folks that were. And so, I feel like there needs to be more discussion around that. 

And obviously knowing that like all of our experiences are a little bit unique because each state handles it slightly different. You know, even like down to creditor period, it's so funny. I'm always learning something new when it's like, how long is your creditor period? How long is your creditor period? I know, Alabama, I just learned is six months. I think ours is three months here in Tennessee. So.

Jill: (41:54)

What Mollie is referring to when she says creditor period, she's referring to the period of time after someone has passed that a creditor can come forward and make a claim against the estate. And so, you'll have a different time period, whether the creditor has received notice of the death versus if the creditor has not received notice. 

And sometimes those statutes can get a little bit complicated, but they're obviously important because knowing whether a creditor can recover from the estate and during which time periods is something that's going to be relevant to someone serving as executor or administrator for an estate. I think that's a good point that the state laws do vary just like the state intestacy statutes. You know, if you pass away without a will, these are state law issues, not federal issues.

Mollie: (42:49)

Yeah, like how property is passed, you know, and so many nuances that I feel like my brain would explode trying to figure out how every state does it. But no, I don't have a great network of professional fiduciaries. And really, I rely a lot on the attorneys that I work with. 

So that's an important point of like when I serve as executive for families, I always have, you know, a representing esstate attorney because I never want to look like I'm practicing law, and I also still have a lot of questions. Even I, who have been doing this now for seven years, every time there's something I haven't come up against and I have no idea what we're supposed to do here. So, I ask my attorney, we figure out a plan and we go from there. 

So even those who have been doing this a while, like myself, I still don't feel like I know everything there is to know. And I'm sure that's probably the case for just estates in general, you know? Every estate is so different and unique, and has nuance to it that you don't know what to do with.

Jill: (43:46)

I agree because even corporate fiduciaries, they also retain an estate attorney to represent them in their capacity as executor because there are legal questions that you need an attorney to answer. You need an attorney to know about certain deadlines. And because every estate is unique, you're going to have an ongoing conversation with an attorney about what you should do in specific circumstances that you could not possibly know ahead of time.

Mollie: (44:19)

Yeah, and I think that applies to any estate situation. That's what we teach when new folks are becoming after loss professionals is, your first stop should be the estate attorney. You need to understand what you're working with here for your client or for yourself if you're the executor because they are the ones who provide the expertise and knowledge to know, hey, do we need to go through a legal process called probate or not? What are the next steps need to look like? 

We are big advocates for estate attorneys and using them. Despite sometimes our clients’ chagrin of feeling like, you know, this is another cost, and we still feel really adamant. And I especially won't work with clients that don't talk with an estate attorney because it's that important to me that we get legal guidance on these things before we take action.

Jill: (44:58)

Right. And one of the things that I've emphasized is that the wills that I've seen that have been drafted by other than an attorney end up costing the family a lot more money than if someone had spent the money upfront to get an attorney. So, I think a lot of things that you think you know, or you think make sense, so it should be the rule, it's not always the rule and especially with estate administration and tax related issues. Sometimes you can't fix things after they've occurred. You know, doing them right the first time is sometimes the only way to do them if they can't be fixed without at least a significant monetary cost. So that's a good point. 

In the work that you've done, Mollie, and the various conundrums that you've come across, is there any guidance or advice you would offer to people, whether it's in preparing their estate documents or in administering an estate or maybe something you wish that you knew before that you know now that you might like to pass on?

Mollie: (46:30)

Good question. I mean, I think a big thing when it comes to when a family has lost someone that I see over and over and again and again, is this need to feel like we're doing something productive and so we start doing things. 

And so, a lot of times clients come to an after loss professional after, of course, the person has passed. But what we typically say is, you know, you have to wait for this document called a death certificate. And a death certificate normally comes a few weeks, maybe a week after the funeral services. And what I have seen in that time of waiting for that death certificate and just kind of giving the family space once the funeral has ended is that they will feel this tension of I either sit in my feelings, or I get to moving on things. 

And what I always tell my clients is don't fall prey to the false hope of moving forward on things because what will inevitably happen is you will trip yourself up doing something. You will close yourself out of something. You will start something you didn't realize what the end effect would be, or you'll make it a messier situation than it was before sometimes. 

And so, I tell my clients a lot, try to ignore the little voice in your head that says, need to get moving on things because you don't want to feel uncomfortable in your grief and your feelings. You know, like I think some people just can't, they can't sit with it. They can't sit with the grief. They can't sit with the sadness. And so, they'd rather be actively moving and doing things. But I see so many times where that has just created a lot of issues for us, later on down the road, because they didn't realize what they were doing or starting when they proceeded with some of their actions. So, I say sit in it a little bit. 

You know, the thing about estate work in my opinion is it's timely, but it's not urgent. Meaning that we need to be prompt, we need to be on top of this stuff. But my clients sometimes come to me with such frenetic and chaotic energy of, I need to call the bank, I needed to call the bank like yesterday. And I'm like, okay, we do need to call the bank, but we don't need to call them yesterday. We need to understand what we've got. We need to meet with the attorney and then we can call the bank and be prepared for whatever the ramifications are for that. But you need to take a beat and let's get our arms around this before we start moving forward. 

So that's a big word of advice that I give is just take a beat, take a pause, let's understand what we're working with and don't feel like you need to just be moving for the sake of moving on stuff.

Jill: (49:23)

I think that is very valuable advice because like I said, sometimes you can't undo things that you've done. So, it's best to, as you said, take a beat and get the professionals to kind of explain where you are and what your next steps are and have a plan before you start trying to cross things off, you know, a handmade list. 

Mollie: (49:55)

Right. Exactly, it's like, do not try to sell property right now. Don't try to close out things, don't try and do this. We will get on top of all of this. But let's first get a full scope of what we're working through. 

A lot of estate work is kind of a trickle-down effect is what I say. And so we need to understand if we do this, what does that mean for this? And if we do this, what does that mean for this? So, I really rely on the timely, not urgent phrase, because I think that my clients can like really take a breath and say, okay. 

And then, you know, I think don't underestimate the power of professionals. And, you know, obviously as an after loss professional, I sound a little biased there, but when it comes to things like, for instance, we just had this amazing experience with a company called Clutter Cleaner. It's actually Matt Paxton's company.

Jill: (50:49)

Yes. You know, Matt Paxton, I just listened to him on another podcast. It's a new podcast. It's called The Move In. And he was a guest with Live Now. Do you know who they are? Well, I was impressed. Live Now is a relocation company. And according to what I learned on the podcast, they help manage every step of the moving process. So, from selling and staging a home to organizing and coordinating the entire move. 

And on this particular podcast, they were focusing on one of their specialties, which is helping people transition from a long-time home into a senior living community. I'll include a link to the podcast in the show notes. 

Of course, I know Matt, thanks to you, Mollie, because you introduced me to him. But this podcast just aired January 26th. So, it was recent, and he was talking about, I think, his collaboration with Live Now, but also talking about Clutter Cleaner. And, you know, that's a whole other show. But he is a very valuable professional, not of the type that you are, but very valuable in this space. And he was also on Jimmy Kimmel decluttering somebody's office.

Mollie: (52:18)

Yes, we learned about that specific little airing that he had. But yes, watching professionals come in, I think that families feel like, I don't want to spend another dollar on this. And they'll start to do things themselves. 

And when it comes to things like personal property, so the things in your home, I mean, we were dealing with situations where there's a lot of things to deal with. Because we brought in a professional like Matt Paxton and his company, they identified some very high value things and got them in the right hands of the individuals who could get us the high value for those things. 

I can't imagine if a family had just gone through, if a lay person had just gone through this stuff, they'd be like, I don't know, toss it, junk it, or try to do this very fruitless exercise of selling things on Facebook Marketplace, which if you ever have done it, it's the most asinine thing of just, dead ends and bots and I can't express how much of a wasted effort selling things yourself is. So, bringing in professionals, yes may cost you in the beginning, but I think that what I've watched when I've brought in people who are experts in this area is they are able to get you a higher value than you could have ever found yourself. 

And so, you need to be cautious of, you know, obviously you can't hire every single person to do every single thing, but you also have to have that balance of when a professional is needed or not. 

And when it comes to things like personal property, I don't know what I'm doing. I always have said, I don't touch your things. I don't touch the things. I don't deal with the things, but I know people who do, and they are experts and know how to get it out there.

Jill: (54:00)

For people who don't know who Matt Paxton is or his business.

Mollie: (54:04)

So Matt Paxton is, gosh, how do you explain him? He is a stuff expert is the best way I'm going to describe him. So, he has been on multiple TV shows, Hoarders, he has been on...

Jill: (54:18)

Wasn't he the host of Hoarders for around 15 years or so?

Mollie: (54:21)

Yes, and so then he was also on a great show called Legacy List. It’s a great show. He has immense knowledge. I mean, it really is something to watch someone like him go through a home and say, I've got a guy for this. I've got a guy for this. I've got a guy for this. 

Whereas if just a random person off the street is going in, I mean, the overwhelm alone would take them down. Then, you know, just finding the resources, the right people, to actually get this stuff out there, to get a value for it, to know what it's worth. That's just an example. 

I say that for a lot of things. Like a professional really is a good investment for situations like that and beyond, you know, just to know how to actually handle a situation appropriately.

Jill: (55:07)

I think what's important too, especially in this world of working with individuals who have experienced a loss. So, Clutter Cleaner, Matt Paxton's business, they're not just coming in there like bulldozing through your stuff. They're doing it in a very compassionate way. When I was listening to Matt on this podcast, he said, you know, we don't just come in there and take care of the stuff. You know, if you have a widow sitting there, we're going to talk to her, ask her about the things, ask her how she's doing. 

One of the other things he said is, nobody has pockets. You know, none of his crew wears pockets because he doesn't want anyone in the family to worry that maybe somebody's stealing something. You know, just thinking about these things in advance because you're dealing with a clientele who is, you know, grieving and definitely needs a lighter touch, more compassion than maybe your average crew that's cleaning out a house.

Mollie: (56:11)

Absolutely, and he really is like, so inspiring to watch him go through that because he did that exact same thing. I mean, he handled it with such compassion, but also was very efficient because he's done this so many times. 

He knows, guns, I know who's a great person to sell guns. I know a great person who can sell these instruments. I know a great person who can do this and do that. That takes me hours of research. 

And that's where I'm saying, it's not like you should hire someone for every single job, but when it comes to some of these more nebulous things where you really are feeling outside of your comfort zone, there are people who do this every day and they can help you in a much more efficient and effective manner than you could do it yourself. So, I don't think, kind of like the grin and bear it works well when you're going through a loss. I think you really got to rely on the professionals and other people to help.

Jill: (57:08)

Right, and I do think to your point, it is not hiring all the professionals but hiring the right professionals. the professionals who have the experience to save you time, and then in the end, they're saving you money because they have the experience, and they have the contacts to handle the administration or the clear out or whatever needs to be done efficiently. You don't want it to be somebody's first time doing this.

Mollie: (57:39)

No, no, it is not for newcomers, that's for sure. I mean, everybody has to learn somewhere, but when it comes to things like personal property, gosh, I just can't say how much I've learned in the process of just watching others work. It's not for the faint of heart. It's not a newbie's job, that's for sure.

Jill: (57:57)

Right, and to make sure that if you are a professional looking to get into the after loss profession and Mollie, we mentioned earlier that you're a co-founder of PALS, but PALS, the group does offer training for people who want to do this type of work. 

And then because for anyone who's starting, it is going to be your first time, there's a membership group. So, it's not really your first time because whenever you come across something that you've not encountered before, there is the group of professionals who have been doing this repeatedly that you can turn to to ask those questions. 

So, I didn't mean to scare people off from perhaps pivoting or starting a new career. You just got to make sure that you are connected with people who have the right experience.

Mollie: (58:47)

Sure, like a safety net, like people you can talk to and say, hey, how'd you handle this? What am I supposed to do here or what do you do? I mean, that's what is the gift of PALS completely is folks who have all had very different estate experiences who can say, well, yeah, I know exactly what I did there. And I called this person and here's what they did for me. That is huge. And just when you're coming across something you've never seen before, which is every estate I've ever been on.

Jill: (59:13)

That's true. Well, thank you, Mollie, for talking with me today. It's pleasure to connect with you on the podcast. I know we connect frequently off the podcast, but nice to connect so that you can impart your wisdom on others as well. So, thank you very much.

Mollie: (59:18)

I do my best. Well, thank you, Jill. I love that you're doing this podcast. I just think it's so helpful to have these conversations and get them out there, like I said, and just like de-stigmatize what people get through when they lose somebody.

Jill: (59:46)

I agree. Thank you, Mollie. That wraps up my conversation with Mollie Lacher. And as you heard, we covered a lot of ground. If you're interested in learning more about anything we discussed, you'll find links in the show notes and on my website at oversimplyllc.com/podcast. Thanks again for listening. And I hope you'll join me for the next episode of The Death Readiness Podcast.

Before we wrap up, I want to remind you that while I am an attorney, I'm not your attorney. The Death Readiness podcast is for educational purposes only, and should not be considered legal advice. Use of this information without careful analysis and review by your attorney, CPA, and/or financial advisor may cause serious adverse consequences. I provide no warranty or representation concerning the appropriateness or legal sufficiency of this information as to any individual's tax and related planning. For legal guidance tailored to your unique situation, consult with a licensed attorney in your state. To learn more about the services I offer, you can visit Oversimplyllc.com.

April: (1:01:04)

Hi, I'm April, Jill's daughter. Thanks for listening to The Death Readiness Podcast. My mom always says that death readiness isn't just about planning, it's about the people you leave behind and the legacy you create for them. We hope today’s episode helps you think about how to take care of yourself and your loved ones, now and in the future. If you liked what you heard today, share this episode with someone you care about. Follow our show for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you're listening right now.